Kerasoft 3 lenses

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GarethB
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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby GarethB » Mon 24 Nov 2008 9:15 am

Naveed;

I am getting nothing half price :?

I was invited by the manufacturers of the lenses to give feedback on their performance and I managed to bring Anne along to represent the group. We were lucky becuase normally you have to pay to attend these and the costs do prohibit us from attending. Hopefully Anne and I have adressed this with the organisers, so the group might be invited to more confrences at a more affordable cost so that we can provide help, support and advice which is the core aim of the group.

Pepepepe;

The whole idea of any clinical trial is to determine if their is any benefit to the patient so as you point out without a trial how do we know they work. My experience is yes they do. It was mentioned at the confrence that soft lenses have a higher instance of infections, however my personal view is that this is mainly down to personal hygiene. In the past I have worked in some very dirty and dangerous places, some of which were about a month post graft working in sewage treatment areas and sewers where I was handling raw sewage. Touch wood I have never had an eye infection in my life, but I am careful regarding personal hygiene and cleanliness of my lenses. I am aquetly aware that there are still situations that how careful you are, an eye infection may result from something as simple as grit getting blown into your eye.

The comment from the Moorfields optician may have made his comment because more people in the UK wear soft lenses so may take less care about their lenses than us with KC. I deal with engineers at work and they all say equipment X is always breaking down, but that is all they see, you don't call an engineer to fix what ain't broke.

Until clinical trials are complete I don't think anyone can say what the risks are but having been on websites of manufacturers of hard lenses they make no mention of risks.

Question; are health risks due to the lens material or the lens fit?

As Andrew points out a lens that works for one may be completly useless to another. In my situation the K3 is performing nearly as well as an RGP and at night the performance is better because I don't see light redflecting in the lens edge. However I kn ow many people who wear RGP's and refuse to drive at night because the lens performance is completly different to the day and others who find the complete opposite.

The K3 lens just like new surgical options is another treatment option for the management of our condition.
Gareth

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naveed
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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby naveed » Mon 24 Nov 2008 11:32 am

Hi GarethB and Andrew MacLean ,

I thought you meant the Kerasoft3 for half price . Sorry ....

Yeah I think that quite right everyone will differ and I also do think RGP might have more probability of getting better vision because of cone being pushed however at the same time like I have the problem RGP falls out . Kerasoft 3 might do the magic and give me more time .

I wish a some magical treatment comes and cones disappear in all of the KC patients....

I dont know if any research is happening or any thing in pipeline ...for reversal .

About infections I 100% agree with personal hygine is the most important factor . But .....Who know when and where infections fall in love with eye... :)

Naveed
It's true that we don't know what we've got until we lose it, but it's also true that we don't know what we've been missing until it arrives

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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby Anne Klepacz » Mon 24 Nov 2008 11:52 am

Some hospital eye clinics are now also offering special soft lens options for KC and of course, lenses prescribed through a hospital clinic do come at the subsidised NHS rate whatever the type and cost of the lens. A number of different contact lens manufacturers are now developing soft lenses for KC. As I understand it, the problem with the first versions developed was that they didn't let enough oxygen through to the cornea. This is now being addressed in the newest versions, so hopefully they'll work better. As Andrew says, we're all different, and what works for one KC eye won't necessarily work for another. But it's great that there are constant improvements in all the different lens types - soft, rigid rgps, scleral and hybrid lenses. But access to all the different types is still patchy around the country, so one of the things we need to keep fighting for is that everyone with KC can try other options if one doesn't work for them.
Anne

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pepepepe
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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby pepepepe » Mon 24 Nov 2008 12:16 pm

Naveed, Soft lenses are more like sponges and so bugs can get in them which otherwise would be cleaned of.

On another point, here is an interesting study

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... mptype=rss

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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby GarethB » Mon 24 Nov 2008 12:55 pm

That is an intersting article and the timing was a bit unfortunate in that it was written a couple months after two manufacturers launched silicone hydrogel lenses for KC, so the study would have been done pre-launch. The holdup on the product development of both lenses was to produce a silicone hydrogel material for KC that was on a par with RGP lenses regarding oxygen transfer.

With RGP lenses on occasions I can get oxygen dperevation of the cornea and this was the same with the material development of the silicone hydrogel, now I don't get oxygen deprevation after wearing lenses longer than RGP's so manufacturers are making advances.

They are also advancing with surface technology, MY RGP's get a protein coating very quickly and need osaking on protein cleaner at least weekly, so surfaces now beinf produced on soft lenses are so smooth and slippy after a month of wear there has been no need to put lenses in protein remover. To me it is as if the surface is so smooth, there is no nucleus for protein to get hold and start coating, perhaps this means they are harder for infections to fins a home on too?

There is a slight flaw in the study (the only one that leaps out at me and from my experience is significant) is that the room temperature was kept constant but what about humidity? Where I work we have areas at 22C and relative humidty must be less than 35% and that really hurts my eyes, where the offices are at 22C but relative humidity is still less than 50%, not so bad for my eyes but still dries them out.

Wth modern soft lenses I don't think we can generalise that all soft lenses are like sponges. The first soft lens I tried was and did pull water out of my eye, silicone hydrogels are designed to maintain their own water content and not dry the eye out. My experience of the new silicine hydrogel materials suggests this to be the case as they are out performing the RGP's in most areas.
Gareth

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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby pepepepe » Mon 24 Nov 2008 1:21 pm

How much was your Kerasofts ? (the cost outside of the NHS arena preferably) If you look at the sites Naveed posted they are marketing them as an alternative to RGPs, but with out one proper study first. The guy from moorfields at the conferance did say RGPs have less infection rates. I would tend to beleive a non profit like moorfields more than a business.

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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby GarethB » Mon 24 Nov 2008 4:07 pm

No idea about cost as I am treated through NHS so not parted with any cash.

As an alternative to RGP's? Yes they are especially if like me you are becoming intolerant of the RGP material, but as for there being no proper study, they have been out for 12 months with several hospitals trialing the lenses. If a manufacturer publishes the results the battly cry is "they would say that" we just need to see what the hospitals publish, but that might just be posters at confrences such as the one optoms had last weekend.

Not doubting what was said at the confrence because I was the one that videod it :D I just question was that soft lenses in general or soft lenses used for the treatment of KC, is there a like for like comparison as we often have other vison complicatiosn because of the alergies we have.

I beg to differ about Moorfields being non-profit making as I am sure they now have a branch in Dubai http://www.moorfields.ae/en/Default.aspx

Surely this is funded by private money rather then our beloved NHS?
Gareth

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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby rosemary johnson » Mon 24 Nov 2008 7:41 pm

Moorfields has 3 profit-making associated businesses - well, ones that aim to make a profit. One is Moorfields Dubai; one is Moorfields Pharmaceuticals (who make the preservative-free versions of various eye drops, as post-graft people may have experienced); and the thrid is Moorfields private patients activities.
The vast majority of "Moorfields" which most of the people on here who know and love (??) it will experience is part of the NHS.
As regards lenses:
Can anyone remember who it was who made the comment about soft lenses and infections? - was it a surgeon or a contact lens specialist?
It would seem fairly self evident to me that the risks of a soft lens are higher, since the fluid is an integral part of the structure of a soft lens, so whatever liquid has got into the structure will stay there, and if there is anything infectious in that fluid, the infectiousness will stay there as part of the structure and potentially remain as a source of infection.
Whereas a lens made of a rigid gas permeable polymer is a piece of plastic that can be taken out and washed off and dried. Anything infectious that gets on it is only on te surface and not part of the structure of the lens, and can be cleaned off and washed away.
My scleral (made of RGP plastic) cleaning regime is now and always has been far simpler than for the soft lenses I've seen some people cleaning and soaking and...... etc. OK, sclerals can be dried on a tissue and stored dry, which is simpler and easier and less error-prone than keeping corneal lenses wet. But what I've seen of soft lens cleaning regimes is certainly far more of a palaver than I've ever had to deal with and must be more mistake-prone - whether that's human error or just some bug getting in however careful one is.
I was really not at all keen onthe idea of piggybacking, because of that - and wouldn't ever, I'm sure, have got into it if it weren't for daily disposables!
Rosemary

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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby Lynn White » Tue 25 Nov 2008 9:45 am

Some interesting points here and as I am involved in the clinical work with KeraSoft3 and the new KIC lenses, I think I can answer some of the queries.

First, as Andrew so rightly says, there is NOT one contact lens answer to keratoconus. To borrow the phrase of a US colleague of mine, Keratoconus is a "designer condition" . Every cornea is unique and each wearer requires a designer approach.

Secondly, soft lenses for keratoconus have been around for some time now and some of the "problems" quoted relate to the material type. When oxygen transmission rates and infection rates are quoted for keratoconic soft lenses, this refers to hydrogel material because until this year, there were no successful Silicone Hydrogel (SiH) materials that could be lathe cut. SiH material has been available for some years now in disposable form and has now been generally accepted world wide that they offer excellent ocular health even for extended wear. The contact lens industry just needed the material to be in a form that could be lathed so that specialist lenses could be made.

This year has seen several such materials come onto the market and here you need to distinguish between companies that manufacture materials and those that manufacture lenses from those materials. So for example, you can get a RoseK RGP lens made from a variety of different materials all of which have different properties and oxygen transmission, so you can't just say Rose Ks do this or that - performance can depend on the material its made from. Similarly, the KeraSoft is available in normal hydrogels and also now, the KeraSoft3 is available in SIH high water content materiaL.

These new materials are being assessed by hospitals, including Moorfields, for use not only in KeraSoft lenses but also for bandage lenses, paediatric and other medical usages. As for trials comparing infection rates between RGP lenses and soft lenses this is actually not an easy comparison as it very much depends on what use the lenses are being put to (i.e. normal wear, ortho K, irregular cornea etc etc). A more useful comparison for this forum is a comparison between the two types as far as Keratoconus is concerned.

RGP lenses themselves have other issues. There is a some evidence now (e.g. the CLEK study) that RGP wear actually increases the likelihood of central scarring which can lead to needing a graft. More information can be found here http://www.kerreyecare.co.uk/kerratoc_lecture.html. One of the reasons I started to become interested in soft lenses for keratoconus was from when I went to work in Trinidad, where there is a lot of KC. Many patients there simply cannot tolerate rigid lenses of any sort, partly due to the climatic conditions. It struck me immediately that central scarring was much lower in this group. Part of the problem is that often the best vision in RGPs is obtained by fitting the lenses flat on the cornea, which means the lenses rub and cause damage. I was horrified on a recent lecture visit to South Africa that ophthalmologists were actually writing notes to optometrists instructing them to "Fit flatter" in order to get better vision for their patients.

Many patients simply cannot tolerate rigid lenses - if everyone got on with them perfectly, there would be no market at all for soft lenses. The main issue with any contact lens for keratoconus is that it is comfortable and has a wearing time that is adequate for the wearer, which in KC has to be most of the day or the wearer cannot function visually. Making lenses out of SiH material is a significant breakthrough that the professionals are finding quite exciting.

To answer the point about coming out of RGPs. The KeraSoft3 lens works more consistently on eyes that have not worn RGPs. There is the issue of unmoulding to be considered for people swapping from rigids to softs and I personally recommend swapping over one eye at a time. As with ANY lens type, there is a difference between what the lens can achieve theoretically and how it is fitted by different practitioners.

New design: there are many corneas that have very odd shapes. KC obviously falls into this category but also PMD (Pellucid marginal degeneration), post graft, post refractive surgery of all types. The KIC is aimed at these types of corneas and many manufacturers have an "IC" lens in their portfolio. What is exciting is that we are looking at creating lenses that have different curvatures at different places on the lens (sector management control)- previously this has only been possible in rigid materials.

Prices: It is impossible to talk about prices because keratoconus fitting is more about chair time than actual physical costs of lenses. We sometimes discuss this on the US KC group and one optom ruefully said she didn't think she ever charged a realistic price for her KC lenses. The condition itself is often a moving target and it is not unusual for ordered lenses not to perform as promised during the trials. This applies to any KC lens and most KC fitters are dedicated people with a genuine interest in their patients - otherwise they would simply just fit disposables to the general population. I know its frustrating not to be given a straight costing but honestly, no-one can hand on heart predict exactly the costs and fitting times for KC lenses.

As ever, I just want to say again that no one lens is a cure all and what works for one person may not work for another. I know many patients who look at message boards such as this one, see an endorsement by a member for a treatment or contact lens and go "WOW!" and off they go and try it only to be disappointed if it doesn't work superbly for them. Conversely, some may complain such and such a lens or treatment did not work for them and others may be put off when in fact it may be just right for them. Please DO remember Andrew's health warning and try to look at information on these boards as a starting point for gathering more information. The only person who can advise you properly is your own eye care professional!

Lynn
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email: lynn.white@lwvc.co.uk

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Re: Kerasoft 3 lenses

Postby rosemary johnson » Tue 25 Nov 2008 7:46 pm

Thanks for that long and interesting post, Lynn.
To pick up just a ocuple of points:
- first, interesting to read about the number of people who don't get on with hard lenses in Trinidad. Is this because it is hot and dry, or hot and muggy, or just the heat? Or is it possible that genetic factors also comeinto play?
Never been to Trinidad, but am thinking (lenses apart!) it should be on the wish-list. ANyone else interested in getting a KC group party together? - block ooking, discounted rates.....
Does the information about hard lenses there include scleral lenses, as a matter of interest? - or aren't sclerals really on the agenda in Trinidad?
- secondly - afraid I can sympathise with the SOuth Africans! I'd say that the main concern for people with KC in a contact lens is: does it improve the vision enough to make it worth putting in in the morning? - never mind paying for. I've had new lenses which appear to fit fine when I'm staring into the distance in the direction of a SNellen chart (or mirror image thereof); but when I try to wear them at home or at work, I find I can read my paperwork better y holding it up to 2 inches from my other, lenless eye than by trying to read it with the new lens. SO why bother?? I've even had lenses that feel comfy staring blankly into the distance but hurt like mad when I try to read in them - probably because I can't read out of them without screwing up the eye enough to make the edges dig in.
OK, I'm unusual and break all the rules in every rule book and have been having sclerals with huge great central contact zones for 30 plus years...... but I suspect I am far fro mthe only one who reckons, if the vision isn't a marked improvement, why bother?
Yes, I do understand where you're coming from here, honest!
Incidentally, it occurred to me to wonder, after I'd sent off my last post, whether there is an inherent infection-risk increase among soft-lens wearers?
- that is, if someone with KC has given up on RGPs (corneal and/or scleral) and resorted to looking for soft lens alternatives because their eyes are too sensitive to tolerate hard lenses, is it also plausile that their sensitive eyes may be more prone to getting infections? - whereas the hardy rugged types whose eyes can shrug off infectious agents that float their way and never get infected are also those who can put up with hard lenses for decades?
......... just wondered.......
Rosemary


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