Drivng Vision Poll

[K Man]

GarethB - You have totally misunderstood my post.

I have not suggested suing anyone under any circumstance and resent your remark, please remove it.

I will state again.

General statistics for graft survival are available. If details exist for VA after a graft, they could also be published as a general statistic. This should be accepted as a general statistic and not a promise or guarentee.

[jayuk]

K Man

I think you may be coming across a little confused in what you wish to know ...and may even be flawed in why you want to know it...


You say

"General statistics for graft survival are available. If details exist for VA after a graft, they could also be published as a general statistic. This should be accepted as a general statistic and not a promise or guarentee."

I think if this occurs and a figure is quoted it means very little......if theres not a promise or guarantee there pretty useless.....and as we know a Graft is a very bespoke procedure.........so you cant provide a promise / guarantee (as you understand)

I think we also open ourselves up to the current problem which exists with Opthamologists whereby we are given this 90% figure!...This whole figure has been quoted and has occured due to the very same reasons you now want for VA.......this would be a disaster...

Very bad suggestion, in my opinion...as we are trying to move away from this 90% figure and actually assign some realism; let alone trying to even understand WHY there is a difference between a Consultants view of Success ; and a patient.

I beleive you may have misunderstood Gareth, he was pointing out a very valid point which people would consider on the premise "well you told me I could have this result!, I havent so I am seeking legal advice"


J

[Andrew MacLean]

You could dispense iced tea from a pot made of chocolate.

It is absolutely the case that, when I gave consent to my operation going ahead, I knew that there were dangers associated with the surgery, one of which was a small but finite risk of catostrophic loss of IOP and associated loss of the eye, a raised risk of cateracts, a raised risk of glaucoma AND that there was no guarantee of a return to driving vision.

Alongside these risks, the ophthalmologist described to me the indicators of a positive outcome. He did include, in the list of things for which he would be looking, improved sight, but it was not the first indicator of success.

I guess that the reasoning behind this is that poor sight is something that can be managed, but other indicators of failure may need more drastic and immediate medical or surgical interventions.

Andrew

[K Man]

If surgeon states he can promise a paticular outcome, he is effectivly asking to be sued.

I am asking for a general statistic to be published, you might think it worthless, I do not. Run a poll to see what others think - more statistics.

I appreciate the delicate structure of corneal tissue, a small deflection can have a big effect, and am amazed at how the do what they do.

Accounting measures are used in all medical areas. The recording of results are an essential part and there for many reasons, to identify the best type of techneque, even to spot bad practice.

To say recording a VA statisic would be usless is obsurd. Suppose one hospital has better than average success in VA than another, there could be a reason why. If these results were not recorded and considered meaningless, that reason will go un-noticed.

Recording, analysing and sharing any information will help push improvments in quality forward.

[jayuk]

Agreed; as far as the last part of yur message goes.....but we cant generalise due to the very nature of this procedure.....ie 90% of all grafts are successfull!!?!?!? Yeh right of course they are.......

[Andrew MacLean]

My own view, for what it is worth is that new outcome criteria have first to be agreed, and that patient expectation ought to be part of that process.

Once new national criteria have been established, it may be possible to move forward to the production of a new statistical analysis of outcomes against expectations.

A

[GarethB]

K Man,

Sorry you find my post offensive, I never intended to suggest that you would sue a surgeon if he gave stats or promised an outcome.

I feel in no way does my post suggest you would do such a thing.

All I did was put forward a reason why such information either is not given or is unavailable.

I am afraid the comment will remain for others to comment on too.

Sometimes I deliberatly take an opposing view as that is sometimes the only way things get debated in full and an informed answer/concensus reached.

Statistics can be very misleading, statically breathing will lead to cancer! Fact

Stop breathing so you do not get cancer you die.

Generalisations are hard to make especially where KC is concerned and especially with respect to grafts.

Picking the wrong statistical tool can lead to disasterous results.

[K Man]

A promise or guarentee is one thing, statistics are another.

Statistics mean somthing if they are acurate, in context, without any spin attached.

Agree with Andrew, deciding to have a graft is a difficult one, an informed choice can only be made could be made with accurate fact.

No problem Gareth. Glad you enjoyed the debate.

[GarethB]

Thanks K Man,

I do not pay much attention to how many post people have made and sometimes forget not everyone knows me as well as some of the others know me.

Perhaps a post graft survey regarding visual aquity might be something we should suggest to the commitee. The group has about 1000 members, no idea how many have had grafts, but such a survey would clarify this especially if it was part of a broader survey.

There was one done many years ago where 10% of people on the mailing list responded, but this was more to do with who has lenses glasses and such like. Back then I think it was felt the members were at the more extreme of the KC spectrum if there is such a thing.

Having since this forum develop over the past 18 months, there are more and more moderate cases of KC where vision is corrected easily with glasses or simple contact lenses. I would imagine the mailing list has changed accordingly so any answers may be more representative of the KC population as a whole.

Plus as a support group there is no need for spin as this would be counter prodcutive for the group.

Hospitals like business will always want to be portrayed in the best light. We just want the facts.

[jayuk]

K-Man

90% is B*ll*x....from a PATIENT perspective...but thats my own opinion.........this whole figure originated from the need to prove to patients why they should have a graft and the minimal risks associated with it. This, along with the consultants perception of a Success has caused; i would suspect; many unneeded/premature corneal graft procedures

J